you know, since we’re all looking forward to the prospect of burning in homestuck hell again, I think this is a good opportunity to ramble on about a plot point in the current timeline/scenario which……. which has me very suspicious I guess? And I’ve been kicking this back and forth in my head for the last several months.
See, back in Act 5 Kanaya says that Echidna offered to tell her the location of the Final Frog in exchange for a request– but this request was, in her words, impossible. Since it was impossible Karkat did the Ultimate Alchemy with the frog as-is, lacking literally any other choice on the matter, and the result is well known.
But she never said what that request was. Not a single peep in the entire story. And Karkat himself doesn’t seem to know what it was either; she just very insistently and pointedly says “it was impossible, nothing else to say”, and he never interjects or clarifies. He just seems to trust that it is.
The funny thing about this is that even though Echidna asked Jade to carry five planets along when she escaped the session, Jade herself did not see the need to hide this strange and absurd request from anyone. Not only that, but she accepted it. She had no idea how she was supposed to accomplish this feat, but she told Echidna she would anyway. And then she told other people what she was expected to do.
So… why didn’t Kanaya? Why did she reject Echidna’s conditions out of hand? For someone like Kanaya who has a Very Particular Way Of Speaking, who came back from the dead, sawed people in half and was so prolific in her Cloud Watching in Skaia, what does “impossible” mean in this context?
And if Echidna’s demand was so impossible before that she wouldn’t even speak of it, how is it that Echidna’s demand right now is so… conveniently what she clearly already intended to do anyway?
So a part of me is trying really hard to convince me that she lied to Karkat. For his own good, of course.
The problem with this line of thinking is that, well. It’s been established that Kanaya doesn’t lie. Eridan even says that she teases, but doesn’t lie. And when put on the spot, she can’t come up with anything better than “oh Karkat really blitzed his chakras so he stayed behind”.
But at the same time… clearly “not lying” is a personal choice for her, rather than some compulsion or quirk. She’s uncomfortable with lying, so she avoids it for the most part. But if she had an idea about what Echidna might want to tell her, and knew
in advance that she might have to lie about it, it would not be impossible for her to rehearse enough to sound plausible… would it?
See, my brain seems to have come up with the incredibly compelling scenario where Echidna wants Kanaya to kill Karkat, to which she says “impossible” while meaning “unacceptable” because the latter would generate questioning. Lying without quite lying. Avoiding a lie while letting someone else misinterpret her anyway.
And that would really explain a lot, including why Echidna’s terms this time around seem so easy, so convenient and so helpful and so hopeful and so suspicious…
…and it makes me feel a little crazy for thinking it up. Both possibilities, that Kanaya is lying and that she isn’t, are too neat and convenient in different ways.
When I think “Kanaya could probably lie to Karkat’s face given some forewarning”, am I being biased in my interpretation of Kanaya?
Maybe it was something else that was extremely important to her Echidna was asking her to sacrifice, like the Matriorb or any type of victory at all.
However my theory is that whatever task Echidna asked her to do now is the same task Echidna in their session asked of her before. However new circumstances of entering the new session mean that something that was once litterally impossible, something Kanaya would have wanted to do but couldn’t because, I don’t know, the humans didn’t exist yet or they didn’t know who Calliope was, name anything, has since become possible due to changing circumstances.
But Kanaya did say what Echidna had asked of her this time. According to what she told Karkat, she was supposed to keep doing what she was doing, strive to recover the matriorb, and not let Karkat die. Even Karkat was surprised.
In the session, she still had the original Matriorb so its recovery was not an issue, and Karkat wasn’t in any particular danger in comparison to the other players and had acquitted himself fine in the battles so far.
So my theory is that Echidna asked the same thing this time around that she had originally, and that it’s still something Kanaya will not do or tell anyone about, and so she chose to lie to Karkat. That’s what the above post is actually saying.
If it was something innocuous that the new session and new circumstances would easily permit, then why lie and say it was something else?
And if it’s something she flatly refuses to even entertain doing, killing Karkat is actually a pretty likely option. His powers are unknown, he has no known role in the new session even though Echidna insists on his presence, Kanaya holds him in very high esteem, she didn’t know Rose the first time around, and the matriorb is already destroyed– so, coming from the assumption that the requests are identical, neither Rose nor the matriorb could have been the original target of Echidna’s impossible request.
yeah, I have a visceral reaction to this current timeline and most of the characters in it, but I do believe it’s necessary for the greater picture in some way, and that something will happen here that Caliborn can’t be privy to. He only has mastery of the alpha timeline, so it makes sense to create an offshoot timeline in order to be secretive, i guess?
Or maybe I’m just lying to myself because I can’t love these characters like I loved the ones before A6A6I1, which is where shit started getting really weird and everyone started to lose track of themselves (aaaaaand maybe eventually we’ll get to see the REAL unglitched A6A6I1 animation?). This entire latest timeline just feels… Vriska-poisoned, I guess? And I can’t bring myself to trust any part of it, even if anything seems good or wholesome on the surface. It feels like a trap. Everything in it feels like a trap.
And considering Karkat was the only Game Over casualty that wasn’t shown on [S] Terezi: Remember… his death and the manner of it are probably significant in a greater way.
Yeah all of that is exactly why I refuse to believe that the GO!selves are forever erased and no longer matter. I mean, that’s not how it has ever worked, the only way we know to really REALLY erase any existence is by LE’s arrival, and not showing something in an [S] is usually a sign that it didn’t happen or at least it didn’t happen in the way you would expect it to. Of course I don’t doubt all of these events are necessary, especially this new Vriska-is-alive-and-everyone-is-happier-but-not-actually iteration, but I haven’t been able to see it as the final answer instead of another step towards a bigger thing.
How many times have we had characters assuming things that ended up being wrong? Or characters straight up lying reinterpreting reality to fit it onto their self centered narratives. And seeing how Serkets are really prone to that and how having Vriska around is the turning point of this new reality, I have to agree that it feels off. They seem fine on the outside but it feel like Vriska has been silencing them until they no longer openly talk their minds, starting by controling the Seer of Mind herself.
For me, it looked like nobody actively agreed with Vriska, but they just followed her orders because she will do as she pleases anyway/will bother them until they say her plan is the best/guilt-tripping them until they feel bad. So it’s waaaay easier to give up and directly jump to the step where they do as she says. I can totally see Vriska being like that, just like her old self did.
What if Kanaya learning to lie is what she has got from such a long direct exposure to Vriska? She seemed sincere enough with Karkat, but then she went and KOd him. She clearly knows more than she is telling there. Also there IS lava coming to him again? Doesn’t look like the most secure place to me.
Anyway, having the other reality totally out of scene would mean Lil’ Cal never being completed anyway, so it somehow has to exist somewhere and I would be lying if I said that I don’t want the GO!selves coming back somehow, extra points for unlocking god tier during the process. But that is wishful thinking on my part, I want them back 😦
That’s exactly my view on the Vriska-exposed crew. They seemed positive, but at the same time defeated, just… flattened. Just going through the motions. I suppose Kanaya might learn to twist her words to the maximum in such an atmosphere.
I don’t think the GO!crew will come back, as much as they’ll be made to not have died in the first place. If John nixes the current timeline (by interrupting himself before stealing Terezi’s plush) the GO!Timeline will run exactly as it did originally. From then on all he needs to do is interrupt it at a much later point, but before the point where things went horribly wrong!
To me, this perfect point is Openbound, on the cherry orchard with Latula’s dragonmom. There was a spot there where Terezi was alone and you had no choice but to follow Karkat upstairs. At that point, her kismesissitude with Gamzee was still new, and his moirallegiance with Karkat was still going strong, and he didn’t even seem particularly inclined to obey Kurloz’s agenda. So… if she didn’t follow him, but instead met someone else who knew how things would go wrong and could stay that course?
What if she met (Vriska) there? I say, coughing blood and reaching for the light
I was going to reply that repeating Openbound would be hard to do, but then I though about how Hussie has been helped by quite a few people and there sure will be interactive parts and it took a while to write all down, and it doesn’t sounds that unlikely anymore. I would love to repeat it, actually. Openbound was a huge turning point, I can see it becoming relevant again. Sign me up.
I don’t think you’d even need to do another Openbound game. Just a screenshot of the scenery to establish setting, and then the rest could be drawn normally.
And yeah, I’m hoping for a huge ancestor comeback.
i feel like a lot of people forget that just because that the god tiers are immortal they dont stop aging. during the three year meteor trip their bodies aged from 13 to 16, so even after the game their bodies should keep aging at normal speed, and eventually die by old age. This means that karkat will not die as the only one, while everyone else lives on for eternity.
this makes sense only to a point, because the biological processes that take you from infant to mature adult, are completely different then the ones that take you from mature adult to death
the first one is an active growth fueled by hormonal signals like growth hormone and puberty hormones, and this one develops your body and mind into your highest peak as a mature adult roughly until age 25
after that these growth hormones simply stop, and your body then just ages because its being worn down through physical wear and tear and you are literally just physically using yourself out faster than you can replace yourself
since we know god tiers continue to age from 13 to 16 since we can see and perceive the physical and mental differences in maturity between living god tier characters of different ages, but we know they cannot die unless it is just or heroic
then it makes sense to me that god tiering does not get involved with any biological processes of maturity, but does prevent natural wear and tear of the body so as to prevent death
conclusion? all living god tier people will age into maturity, reach their peak at roughly age 25, and then stay there permanently and never age higher than that, always constantly at their peak physical and mental condition due to the immortality condition of god tiering constantly refreshing their body and preventing wear and tear
*edit* secondary natural conclusion, if you god tiered as a an adult past the age of maturity, god tiering should actually de-age you back to when you were a fully mature adult at your peak, aka you become just like how you were when you 25 physically, because the process of god tiering should “refresh” you body and heal all wounds, including the accumlated physical wear and tear that happened over the years
Whilst talking to a friend I was suddenly struck by a realization that I think explains the precise nature of how Lord English was defeated. I’ve already spoken a little about how the destruction of the Green Sun should not have depleted his Clockwork Majyyks, and therefore shouldn’t have made him any more invulnerable. Here is my take on what I think happened, and how it explains not only the ending, but the entire plot of Homestuck (seriously).
I’ve already spoken a fair bit in the past about Homestuck’s underlying themes in relation to the comic’s name. At first, when taken literally, “Homestuck” appears to be named for only a very small portion of Act 1, when John is literally “stuck in his home”. He is able to leave later on, so he’s no longer home-stuck, right? Now, my take has always been that this depends on your definition of “home”. Homestuck is a story about people leaving behind “homes” of various scope. John leaves his house, yes, but then he leaves his universe, his session, and ultimately his fundamental reality behind. He becomes unstuck from canon itself. From what more is there left to become “unstuck”?
Let’s remind ourselves what the “treasure” juju does. I mean, obviously we know that Caliborn initially used it to seal the souls of the beta kids, and then later Vriska deployed it against Lord English. But what else does it do? John put his hand through it and it became distributed throughout the canon of Homestuck. This is an ability with a very specific scope; he is distributed not throughout reality, but throughout Homestuck itself. There’s a reason why it is shaped like the Homestuck logo; the ultimate weapon is a gateway to Homestuck.
Lord English cannot be destroyed by conventional means, he can only be defeated by the exploitation of glitches in Paradox Space. So far, the glitches in Paradox Space we have seen have taken a very specific form also; metacanonical altering. Caliborn jams sparkle dust in the game cartridge, and .jpeg artifacts appear across the comic. John sticks his hand in the the juju, he gains the ability to use a retcon glitch. This is how one “glitches” Paradox Space, they interact with the narrative itself; with Homestuck itself. The juju allows one to do this, and this is why it’s so powerful.
Here’s my hypothesis. The weapon/treasure juju does not have three different abilities, it has one. We’ve been seeing it as 1. being able to trap four souls, 2. being able to impart retcon abilities, and 3. having an offensive ability to be used against Lord English. In reality, these are all one ability! The ability to act as a gateway to the Homestuck canon!
Caliborn did not seal the four kids within the juju! He sealed them within Homestuck. This is why the comic is called “Homestuck”! The kids are literally trapped within the narrative by the power of the juju. But, this power is also how Lord English is eventually defeated! Here is what happens in the [S] Act 7 flash.
Vriska activates the juju, it grows big and the kid’s symbols flash on its surface.
The symbol on the victory platform flips around, and turns white, the same colour and size as the juju. A door appears on its surface.
A door also appears on the side of the juju facing Lord English! This is not a coincidence. There are two doors here, one leading one way, and one leading the other way.
Homestuck is ending. By that expanding convention of the Kids, John in particular, escaping their bonds, then there is one more bond for them to break, one more door for them to pass. They need to leave the comic itself.
This is what the white juju with the door represents! The door on the Kid’s side leads out of Homestuck, whereas the door on English’s side leads in.
The kids will get to live on in a happy life beyond the narrative, possibly in the extracanon epilogue, the Paradox Space comic, not to mention fanworks. English will not. Caliborn gaining his power is shown at the moment of his defeat because his timeline is cyclical, marked by two circumstancially simultaneous events; his birth and his defeat. Similarly, the kids leaving Homestuck and Lord English “entering” it are two circumstantially simultaneous events orchestrated by the juju. Lord English has become trapped within Homestuck. While the comic may end for the kids, and they can move on, English is forever trapped within a loop of destruction, held by the bounds of canon.
The reason the juju flashes with the kids colours is because it is preparing to release them, but not to fight English, it is preparing to release them from Homestuck itself, by the comic’s ending.
This is why the comic had to end right after this moment, because otherwise the kids would not have escaped and English would have more canon scope throughout which to dominate.
This is why the juju is white, this is why the Act 7 curtains are white. White is the colour of Homestuck itself, as shown in the text for the logo displayed in the flash in act 1. The white curtains close on the comic, the white juju acts as the gateway into canon.
Perhaps the Green Sun had influence that reached beyond the canon (Paradox Space comic)? If this was the case, the English can no longer use it to access anything outside the canon, because Calliope destroyed it.
This is what Homestuck means. The clue was hidden in the name all along. This was a story about four kids who had literally been trapped inside their own story, and escaped it, trapping their unkillable villain inside it as it ended, meaning that he could spread his destruction no further. Of course Lord English can no longer cause harm within Homestuck, if Homestuck itself has ended! What an appropriate way to defeat an undefeatable villain in a comic where fourth wall breaking and metacanonical interactions with the main narrative are such an integral plot device.
Here is Hussie, deciding to kill off Lord English the only way he can; by ending his own comic. If the ending seemed abrupt to you, this is why.
That magnificent bastard.
OOH
okay, this is a really excellent bridge between the two camps of ‘how deep and clever to subvert everyone’s expectations like that, we can’t complain,’ and ‘what an incredibly shitty and unsatisfying bullshit ending to just drop every important bit of plot on the ground and walk off, we’re going to complain about everything’.
the curtain falls and the lights go out not because we actually reached the end of the play, but because the actors found the exit door backstage. and also, probably, the theater’s on fire.
i guess we can all go sit in the camp of ‘this was clever as fuck and i’m mad as fuck’ now.
In a comment on our Space essay, Reddit user DarkariaX mentioned that Witches “in some way defy their Aspect”. This intrigued me because I had been under the impression to this point that Witches manipulate their Aspect. After tossing the idea around my head for a while, chatting with @dialmformara about Jade, Feferi, and Damara/the Handmaid’s powers, I came to a new conclusion, combining my previous impression with DarkariaX’s idea: Witches resist the natural order of their Aspect by manipulating their Aspect.
queerhomestuck 